Like everything in small businesses, employee relation issues hit differently. There's less policy, less layers of leadership to absorb conflict, and when things hit the fan, they really hit the fan. In this episode, I'm bringing in a business partner inside the Acacia team who has been managing employee relations issues for a long time and has really great advice for us. We are going to be talking about the most common and egregious employee relations issues that we see, and some very simple things that you can do to manage employee relations inside your small org. Spoiler alert, it all comes down to good communication. Let's get into it. Welcome back to the HR Connection, I'm your host, Sabrina Baker, and today I am wrapping up the three-part series where I bring in my business partners from Acacia, into the podcast to talk about their areas of expertise. Uh, we at Acacia, all of us are generalists, we are generalists at heart, we know enough about all aspects of human resources to dig in and figure things out, but all of my business partners do have their own area of expertise. You've already heard from Penelope, who talked about payroll and HR tech. You've heard from Christine, who talked about benefits and now today, Marie is here to talk about employee relations, which, like everything in small firms, is felt very, very greatly. So, I'm going to let Marie introduce herself, share a little bit about what she loves about working here at Acacia, and, uh, what she would be doing if human resources was no longer a viable option for her. Hello and thank you for having me. Um, it is very exciting to be here and talk about these things. Uh, when I think about the past few years and what I what I do here at Acacia, um, I I love the variety and we probably heard that from everyone else as well, but working in lots of different industries with lots of different people is always keeping me on my toes and it's helping me learn something new every single day. Uh, if I wasn't in HR or working with, uh, Acacia, I would be starting my own business. I would love to own a sandwich shop, maybe somewhere on the beach, uh, heavily focusing on Cuban American fusion food. Awesome, and I can definitely confirm that they're good, her sandwiches are really, really good. Alright, so let's dig into this employee relations stuff. I mentioned, uh, in several episodes of this podcast and really anytime that I get a chance to talk about it, I talk about the fact that working in a small organization, and especially if you are managing HR in a small organization, it feels like living in a small town. And part of that feeling is that everybody's in everybody's business, everything is really personal. And I specifically mentioned a couple episodes ago on the scaling HR, um, podcast episode, that for some reason, and I have no data, I have no science, but for some reason 60 employees is the number where the proverbial stuff hits the fan as far as, um, employee relations issues. It seems to be the number of employees where those seem to get really intense, there's a lot of them, leaders are spending a lot of time on employee relations issues. So, Marie, I would love to hear from you why you think it is that employee relations issues feel so big in a small org versus a larger one. You know, in a small organization, everyone's going to feel it, right? There's nowhere to hide when someone's checked out, frustrated, or even causing any friction. Uh, in small issues, they never stay small, right? They ripple, they take effect over time. Uh, one weird message or manager avoiding a hard conversation and suddenly the entire team's going to be walking on eggshells. Yeah, definitely. It's, it is hard to hide when there's only 20 of you, or when there's only 30 of you, and so any little issue, if you have, um, you know, any kind of interpersonal issues, performance issues, behavioral issues, those all are, front and center. Um, and if we try to avoid them, if we try to, like, sweep them under the rug, everybody knows they exist, and so it just becomes this, like, big elephant in the room, um, that seems to happen and it, it just becomes something that can really derail the entire productivity and efficiency of the organization, I think. So, kind of piggybacking on that a little bit, why, what, what happens in a small org? I, I talked about kind of sweeping things under the rug and, and kind of avoiding them. What do you see happening when conflict is completely avoided? You end up getting resentment, right? People stop trusting leadership, they start gossiping with one another, or just mentally checking out altogether, right? And honestly, that's a main factor that leads into losing really good people. Uh, it's, it's not because of one dramatic blow-up, right? It's because no one addressed the little things that happen and build up over time. It's kind of the story of small business life, isn't it? Like, it's those little things that add up that then suddenly are these massive, massive issues. Okay, so the cool thing about doing what we do, I think, and you mentioned it, everybody's mentioned it, is the variety of clients. So we wo- work across all industries, all company sizes up to 500, which means we have some clients that have 8 employees and some that have 450 employees. So we get a wide variety in there, we have a wide variety of leadership styles and just, um, really every client is kind of a unique experience. But, just like with payroll benefits and any other HR task that we touch, there are common themes that pop up across some of these HR disciplines. So, in your experience, what are those common employee relations issues that we see pop up across our clients? This is always a really fun question for me to answer. Uh, and it definitely depends on where you're working, right? Uh, what I help work through now in a more corporate setting doesn't really even come close to the chaos I managed back in my warehouse days. Uh, still, no matter the environment, there are usually three types of employee relations issues that show up again and again. Number one would be communication breakdown. So this is basically two people just not clicking or vibing, and instead of talking it out, they keep score of every little jab, uh, whether it's real or imagined, and then let the, the frustration fester over time. In silence. The second issue that I see a lot is going to be, uh, managers dodging performance talks. So, managers, whether they're new or, you know, even well-seasoned managers, a lot of times they don't want to be the bad guy, right? Like, they're just trying to get through the day-to-day, just like everyone else. And so, these managers, they'll put it off, and they'll put it off, and they'll put it off until it blows up into something bigger than it ever really needed to be. The third issue that I see a lot is going to be inconsistent treatment. So, letting one person stroll in late every day, but side-eyeing someone else for doing the same thing, uh, yes, it sounds petty, but it happens and it does quickly stir tension up, uh, in the environment, especially in a small team. Yeah, and you know what's interesting about those three is that I don't think any of them are intentional. I think anybody's, anybody's trying to have communication breakdowns or they're trying to maybe play favorites, but it just happens because we're dealing with humans, right? We're dealing with people who are messy and nuanced, um, and so you have those common issues. We know that when we do focus groups or engagement surveys, communication is something that always bubbles up to the top as something that employees want more of and they want better communication. And it's one of those things that when you have those breakdowns, when you have that inconsistent treatment, when you have managers really not wanting to be the bad guy, it can create an environment where this is all you're doing all day long, um, is you are dealing with these kinds of situations rather than doing things that actually move the business forward. So, Marie, in light of those three things, what is it that makes these things linger? We, we certainly see them stick around, and as we said, they can blow up and be something that they never needed to be. Why do you think they stick around so long in small orgs? What's happening there? Yeah, we talk about it all the time, right? The answer is because nobody wants to be the one to say it out loud. Everyone crosses their fingers and sits back in silence, hoping that it'll magically sort itself out. And the reality of it is that it never happens that way. And we all know that deep down, right? Uh, at the end of the day, if there's no clear way to name what's happening and nobody actually talks about it, then it's just going to fester and build up and boil over over time. It's, it's funny to me how sometimes we just need to say it out loud. Like, if somebody will just say it out loud, then we can have a productive conversation, then we can go and figure out what we need to do to make things better, but it's like that first step of someone needs to call out what's happening or somebody needs to talk about the behavior or the communication issues, um, and then we can get to that space. But getting people to be comfortable to do that, well, that's definitely part of the battle. Right. And it's not just, like, you know, I think a lot of times people hold back because they don't know the right way to say it, and you don't have to know the right way to say it. You can simply say, 'Hey, I don't know how to say this, but here's, here's what I'm seeing or here's how I'm feeling,' and that will naturally open up a, a, an open space for people to, you know, come together and talk about things. Yep, absolutely. So we know that employee relations issues come in all shapes and sizes. You can have just ones that are performance-based, you can have behavioral issues, you can have interpersonal relationships that are causing some friction in the workplace, but then there are those employee relations issues which are really big. They're not only impacting morale and engagement, but they have this potential to impact on a greater level in a lawsuit or an audit or a reputation hit from, uh, somebody putting something out on social media. And so those employee relations issues are definitely ones that we cannot sweep under the rug, um, we absolutely have to address and we have to address in the right way. So, can you share with me what you think the most egregious employee relations issues are? Two examples quickly come to mind, and I've seen both blow up in messy lawsuits that led to massive payouts and entire teams being terminated. The first is ignoring harassment or off-behavior just because it's uncomfortable or doesn't seem intense enough to warrant follow-up conversations. Uh, if you know someone is going through a tough time, or, um, you can assume someone's intent, that's exactly how you end up with bigger claims and a broken culture. Even HR and managers can get biased and look the other way for so-called star performers. The second is going to be retaliation. Now, retaliation, it isn't always loud. It can be quiet, it can even be gentle. Uh, retaliation can look like taking away projects or leaving someone out of meetings intentionally, or even unintentionally. Uh, or even shifting opportunities somewhere else after somebody speaks up about something. Uh, that subtle freeze-out that I just talked about, it kills trust faster than anything else. Yeah, you know, in this business, we certainly do a lot of harassment training. We do a lot of, uh, cultural training around respect in the workplace and how leaders should be, um, managing their teams and part of that training often includes data from the EEOC on the lawsuits that they have settled or, uh, the fines and that harassment, that retaliation, it is always at the top of their reasons list for going after an employer. And certainly, the fines that come along with that, um, are, can be detrimental to a small org on a, a very small budget. So not only do you have the morale hit and the engagement hit and the trust loss, which is massive, but on top of that, now you have this very, uh, visible and public lawsuit that the fines of which, um, can absolutely derail your entire business. And so, uh, definitely, um, you know, we think of employee relations as kind of a day-to-day things that are happening inside the business, but they can also be these really big things that have to be addressed right away. All right, so, Marie, I think one of the things that we know our listeners come to us for is best practices. There's lots of talk about what not to do or what are those biggest issues, but really what I think is most helpful is how can we do this well? So, if you had a client in front of you or just whoever is listening who might be managing HR in a small environment, um, what are what are some advice that you would give them to handle employee relations issues really well? Don't overcomplicate it. Just be proactive. If something feels off, say something. Even if it's just calling out a weird vibe or asking a quick question, speaking up creates space for a real dialogue or a chance to offer up some coaching before it turns into a bigger issue. When I look back to the ER messages that blew up in my career, whether I was the HR person or just another employee trying to work through something sticky, it always came down to someone sometimes me, uh, just waiting too long to say anything to anybody. Uh, you know, there's a lot of afterthought or worry that comes with actually speaking up when you're concerned about something, right? Uh, speaking up, it doesn't make you a snitch, it doesn't make you annoying, it doesn't mean that you're too sensitive about how other people are acting. It shows that you're willing to work through what feels off instead of just letting it fester. It doesn't mean every awkward moment needs to go straight to HR, that's not what I'm saying. It just means that more people need to say something in the moment directly in a way that actually helps you and the other person. Yeah, it is often amazing to us, I think, how, again, many things could have been so much smaller. They didn't need to be turned into the thing that they were turned into, had somebody just said something in the moment or spoken up in the moment when there was a communication issue, when there was a breakdown of trust or this feeling of somebody playing favorites. If there was just a conversation in that moment, um, then it could have been handled and squashed kind of right then rather than letting it go on and on. And I think, as we've said throughout this podcast, the longer we let it linger, the worse it's going to get, and the harder it's going to be to come back from it. Um, we talk a lot about trust, and as we lose trust with employees or each other, it's hard to get that back. It's never going to be perfect again. Um, and so, certainly, you know, part the easiest part maybe, easiest, hardest part of handling employee relations issues well is just being willing to talk about them, just being willing to be open and, you know, say the things that need to be said so you can work through whatever it is you're trying to work through. Mm-hmm. Okay, so let's say that somebody has kind of maybe let an employee relations issue get out of control. It's gotten a little messy, it's gotten a little bigger than it needed to be, maybe we ignored it, maybe we didn't see it, you know, we didn't realize that it was becoming an issue until it was too late. Um, but something has happened and now we kind of have this messy situation on our hands. Not necessarily maybe a legal situation, but just something that's causing some conflict inside of the organization. And because we are a small org, everybody's aware, everybody feels it, it's kind of really cramping the productivity and the efficiency and the ability for everybody to do their job. When you have something like that that gets really messy, what is your advice to reining that back in? It's going to be so important to first pause, stop, and take a breath, right? We don't want to make any decisions when emotions are high. And let everything really continue to spin out of control. So once you've taken a pause and taken a breather and collected your thoughts, emotionally regulated yourself, uh, we need to figure out who the right person is to handle the tough conversation. Uh, don't just dump it on whoever is available. Or even the manager or the CEO or anybody else, right? Really take a moment to think about who is the right person to handle these tough conversations. And then once you've done that, tell people something. Even if you can't share all of the details, let folks know that it's being addressed. Radio silence makes people assume the worst and worry even more about the situation. Over my career, I've watched messy situations turn around just by resetting expectations and having an honest human conversation with people. It's not magic. None of it is. Uh, it's just showing up like a leader. People want to feel confident that their concerns are being taken seriously and handled in an appropriate manner. Yeah, I think you make a good point about, um, saying something to people. You know, I always say in this business, I know you've heard me say this all the time, if you don't communicate to people, they don't assume there's nothing to communicate. They make stuff up. They will just make stuff, whatever, whatever they think you might be hiding, they're just going to make that up and go with it. And I, I think it occurred to me as you were, um, answering that the smaller you are, the even more important that becomes because that transparency piece when you're eight people like us versus 800, it's very different. You can be maybe a little less transparent because a bigger size can absorb that in an organization like ours. If we had some massive employee relations issue, well, every other employee is going to know about it and to just like pretend it's not happening or pretend it didn't happen or, uh, me not to come out and say, okay, hey, this was going on and while I'm not going to give you every gory detail, here's my thoughts on it. It really does create this situation where people are just uneasy and they're not, they're not sure about what's happening. And so I think that the smaller you are, the more transparent in everything you have to be. I don't know if that's just my philosophy as a CEO. What do you think about that? Yeah, absolutely. It doesn't matter what size you are. I think you need to be talking about these things. You need to be as transparent as possible. But the smaller you are, the more important it is to say those things. Like you said, everyone's already going to know whether they're a part of an investigative conversation or just like, on the sidelines, like people are going to know. And so it would be it would probably feel quite delusional as an employee knowing these things and not having anyone else talk about it. All right, so we have talked about, um, the biggest employee relations issues that we see, how to handle them. Um, and like any good HR people, we have some pretty juicy employee relations stories. And so if you want those, if you want to see kind of the most difficult employee relations stories for us that we have worked through as individuals, or just the ones that have stuck around with us, the wildest stories, I used to work in a call center, Marie used to work in a warehouse, so we have some really good stories. And team members also have their own stories to add. So you can check out the blog. We'll link to that in the show notes so that you can read and maybe even add in the comments some of your crazy employee relations stories. But Marie, what I like to always do is give our listeners a takeaway. So one takeaway from today we are talking to people who are managing human resources in a small environment. They don't have a lot of time. Certainly don't have a lot of resources. So what is one thing that you would suggest they could go do today after listening to this episode to really start to look at their employee relations issues or process and get that more in alignment? One thing everyone can start doing today is this: if something feels off, say something early. It doesn't have to go straight to HR, just talk directly to the person in the moment when it happens. Managing employee relations, it doesn't have to be scary. It just has to be intentional. Awesome. All right. Thank you so much for being here, Marie. If you want to connect with Marie, we will put her LinkedIn down in the show notes as well. I would encourage you to connect with her if you have a crazy story to share or you just want to bounce an idea off of her. Maybe you're dealing with your own employee relations issue and you're not sure what to do. We're happy when we can to give little bits and pieces of advice. This concludes, as I said in the beginning, the three-part series with the business partners. I'm talking about payroll benefits and employee relations issues. The next episode of the podcast is actually the season one finale. And I'll be recapping all of the things that we talked about and learned on the HR connection. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you so much for having me, Sabrina.